Under Latasha Gillespie, Executive Head of Diversity, Equity and Inclusion at Amazon Studios, Amazon rolled out its new inclusion playbook in June of 2021.
Since then, the streamer launched its biggest, most expensive series, “Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power,” which was met with great acclaim and, sadly, with social media furor over the epic fantasy series’ diverse casting. And body-positive reality show “Lizzo’s Watch Out for the Big Grrrls,” was nominated for six Emmys, winning three, including one for Outstanding Competition Program and one for director Nneka Onuorah.
Gillespie recently spoke to TheWrap about how she and her team, and various creatives like Viola Davis and “One Day at a Time” co-creator Gloria Calderón Kellett, came up with the playbook, how’s it’s been implemented, and how embracing diversity in front of and behind the camera benefits Amazon’s bottom line, even if a certain segment of the population is actively trying to shout it down.
“I don’t do diversity work for the sake of diversity,” said Gillespie. I understand the business aspect of this. At the end of the day, no matter what industry you’re in, you have KPIs or business metrics that you are accountable to, that your company is accountable to – either its board or its shareholders or whoever else, its customers. For me, it’s really about understanding the business impacts of diversity, equity, inclusion and accessibility, and how it’s good for, not just the bottom line, but all those other metrics that you’re tracking.”
TheWrap: Part of Amazon’s motto is “leaders are right a lot.” What does that mean when it comes to the diversity playbook and the success of “Lizzo’s Watch Out for the Big Grrrls”?
Latasha Gillespie: What it means is that we were right a lot when we knew we could tell very specific stories about thick, curvaceous, beautiful Black and brown, straight, cis, trans and queer women that would resonate with broader audiences. We saw that with the fanbase and the audience themselves, but then also, it can be a commercial access, while also an awards play, which we saw [at the Emmys]. It was so great, especially to see Nneka Onuorah honored because she’s brilliant. You’re gonna see so much more from her to come in the next year or two. I’m so happy that we got to work with her this early on and that she was the one helping bring this vision to life as a Black queer woman.
The casting in “Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power” really embodied the essence of the playbook before it was put into practice.
We’re really proud to say that we literally found the best actors on the globe to play those parts, irrespective to what country they were born in, what their race or ethnicity was, body type or their sexual orientation, we found the most fantastic cast and crew to help bring that story to life.
After the racist backlash to the show, many in the fandom have come out in support — like the “Lord of the Rings” actors from the films, and obviously, the cast and crew of “Rings of Power.” Do you feel that indicates the degree of enthusiasm for what you are trying to do at Amazon?
Yeah, I think so. I find it funny, whether it’s “Lord of the Rings” or “House of the Dragons,” how people can criticize a mythical magical place that doesn’t really exist. If you’re doing world building, create the world you want to see. And I think you can do that brilliantly, as long as you’re working with really talented people who will make that story come to life for all audiences. [If you do that], you’ve just broadened the reach. You’ve opened it up to new fans and allowed people to discover it in a way that maybe they wouldn’t have traditionally.
How did you create the inclusion playbook and what kind of discussions did you have with creators at Prime and at Amazon about incorporating it?
The first thing that we did was actually sit down with creators like Gloria Calderón Kellett, Greg Daniels, Daniel Dae Kim, and Viola Davis’s company, JuVee Productions, and really talk through what we were proposing, the why, and then the how. We wanted to get perspective from them to better understand: How did it feel to them as a creator? Did it feel intrusive? Bureaucratic? Authentic? Attainable?
We got great feedback, and in places where they had constructive input, we definitely incorporated. But overwhelmingly, what we found from a lot of them were comments, like “Thank you for articulating what good looks like as a creator,” and “I’m trying to be inclusive, but I really didn’t have a yardstick, this actually gives me a guide, and helps me understand how I can be intentional in ways that maybe I haven’t thought about,” which was really encouraging to hear.
How do you encourage people to also hire behind the camera in inclusive ways? You want to give people a chance, but creatives often like working with the same people over and over again because they’re a team.
I think all humans find our people, we find our tribe, who brings out the best. So I don’t think it’s necessarily a sleight against folks for having their crew and their team. I just want to make sure that I’m not telling creators that your team is terrible. [Laughs] And I understand why it’s important to have that crew with you.
But I’m also asking them to stop and consider: What story are they telling? Whose story are they telling? There’s an old saying that comes from Apartheid that’s also been widely adopted in the disability communities: “Nothing about us without us.” If you’re telling the story of a woman of color, specifically an Asian woman, let’s make sure there’s an Asian woman in that writers room. If you’re telling the story of a trans man, make sure there’s a trans person in that writers room, because, for the sake of your story, your audience, your customers, you want to tell a fully authentic, fully nuanced story that people can relate to.
This is how you create characters and not caricatures. There are subtle differences, based on our life experiences that shaped who we are and how we would present and the way we would say things or the way we would move and, and you wouldn’t know that if it wasn’t your life experience. We’re saying if you’re choosing to tell the story about this particular character, or characters, then make sure someone in that writers room has that lived experience to make sure you get it right. We’re here to support.
Who are some of your partners who help with that search?
We know you can’t always hire exactly the same lived experiences you’re writing about. You can sometimes get close, but then let us help you with resources that we have contracted from my team, whether it’s GLAAD or Storyline Partners, or Illuminative, which is an organization we work with when we’re telling Native American and Indigenous stories. Let us partner with them to make sure that it feels right to the community that we’re intending it for. We don’t just provide the list, we actually provide the service. I have retainer agreements with those organizations. I don’t want the creator to think, “Can I afford it?” “Is it gonna hit a line item in my budget?” Let us worry about that. You just worry about creating the best story possible that you want to tell it and bringing to life .
Is that something that only Amazon is doing?
One of the things we really tried to focus on with this policy and playbook is changing systems and structures and policies, rather than being a one-off. How do we make this a part of the structure, a part of the system when you work with us? I don’t know if anybody else is doing that, but that’s the work that we’re trying to do. We’re trying to do that not only with historically marginalized communities from a race and ethnicity standpoint or sexual orientation, but also disability. We are finalizing some things that we’re going to be announcing soon around standardizing some of our mental health resources as well. We want to make them far more standard, far more intentional, and far more culturally specific.
Clearly, diversity is important at Amazon, but what do you see as the responsibility of the industry as a whole? What would you like to see happen?
I just would question: What’s the industry’s responsibility to customers? Who are you thinking about as your customers? Are you tapping into what resonates with them and what feels authentic to them, and speaks to the stories that they want to encounter and experience? I think, as an industry, if we ask ourselves that, we will challenge ourselves in different ways.
When you talk about U.S. audiences, the Latino community goes to the movies at far greater rates than any other race or ethnicity. But how is the industry providing content to that audience? Of course, they go see stories that are not specific to just Latino characters and storylines. But if you know that they’re more prone to go to the movies, it would just make sense that you would also serve up more content that actually speaks to their authentic lived experience.
I think that’s really important. You could look across demographic groups, but it’s really about customer obsession. How are we obsessing over customers in a way that when people watch content, television or film that they feel like either A) they’re seeing their own authentic lived experience in a way that resonates deeply and personally with them and/or B) they get experience into someone else’s lived experience in a way that really feels authentic and nuanced in a way that helps increase humanity? Because I think we have an opportunity. We have an obligation to entertain but we also have an opportunity to increase humanity as well.
How has the inclusion policy been implemented so far?
It starts with leadership. Jennifer Salke is the truth. As the head of Amazon Studios from Day 1, she has cultivated this culture of inclusion, not just by the things she says, but how she moves and operates. One of the quintessential examples of that is someone who had worked for me in the past came to work for me again, and as we were headed into an all-hands meeting, they said, “Oh, my gosh, did we give her the talking points?”
I started laughing, because in the past, we probably had to script leaders on what to say around DEI. I said, “No, but I understand your PTSD, though. [Laughs] It’s just who she is. Watch and see who she invited to speak on the stage, watch and see the clips she handpicked to share in the meeting. You will see it’s just naturally who she is.” She sets the tone. She hires leaders who buy into that.
